I've been letterboxing since 2001 but I am brand new to Atlas Quest and this is my first post. I'm not even sure that I'm posting to the right board. I just thought that I had to comment on Mark and Sue Pepe's article about the disturbing statistics that appear on Atlas Quest. It seems that 1/2 of the finds in people's logbooks are from postal letterboxes or virtual boxes. Leaving the house and walking are becoming unneccessary to record finds in letterboxing. I agree with Mark and Sue that this seems to be increasing and is disturbing. Pete and Wanda are also saying the same thing on their website (look under box 127). The original purpose of letterboxing is being stretched to limits never intended by the pioneers of United States letterboxing. My own opinion is that postal letterboxes, letterboxing trading cards (of which I just heard about), and virtual letterboxes are fine in their own way. It's a nice way to collect stamp images as artwork. They each have their own merits and I can see where it would be a fun and rewarding hobby but I can't put it in the same catagory as getting up, going out and looking for a hidden letterbox. I still go by the old adage that there are no rules in letterboxing. To each his own, but I for one will not count these as finds...Chuck and Amy

I can't put it in the same catagory as getting up, going out and looking for a hidden letterbox

To each his own, but I for one will not count these as finds...Chuck and Amy

None of them are counted as traditional finds on this site. In fact, not even hitchhikers are considered as traditional finds on this site. The PFX count you see just above the grid on your profile only includes traditional plants, finds, and exchanges. It is understood from the listing of categories that they are, as you pointed out, not in the same category.

I enjoy the para-letterboxing activities, but I don't pretend that they are the same thing as letterboxing. You're right, it is a nice way to collect stamp images. I guess I don't see what is disturbing about that.

Mama Cache

I still go by the old adage that there are no rules in letterboxing. To each his own, but I for one will not count these as finds...

And if you look at anyone's profile that participates in anything other than Traditional Letterboxes, These are not counted in the plant/find/exchange count. Even HH that are found in Traditional boxes are not counted as finds in the pfx count. So those ribbons beside people's names are only for Traditonal, get up off the couch, go outside finds.
Do complete research, not just info from a few biased places.

Hornicorn *who is proud of the boxes she finds in the wild, and enjoys the art of people from place I may never get a chance to travel to.*

None of them are counted as traditional finds on this site. In fact, not even hitchhikers are considered as traditional finds on this site. The PFX count you see just above the grid on your profile only includes traditional plants, finds, and exchanges. It is understood from the listing of categories that they are, as you pointed out, not in the same category.

I enjoy the para-letterboxing activities, but I don't pretend that they are the same thing as letterboxing. You're right, it is a nice way to collect stamp images. I guess I don't see what is disturbing about that.

Mama Cache

MC I guess it just takes me longer to collect my thoughts and type. I think AMy & Chuck will hear this a lot now.

Hornicorn

They each have their own merits and I can see where it would be a fun and rewarding hobby but I can't put it in the same catagory as getting up, going out and looking for a hidden letterbox.

Well... the point that seems to be missed is that they aren't in the same category. They are not included in the same statistics; they are not mixed together, they are not added up, they are totally separate and distinct... the venerable PFX does not include these. As much as I TOTALLY respect M&S Pepe, I think perhaps this is nothing more than a proverbial tempest in a teapot.

The example of "half the finds are postals/virtuals" is a bit misleading, because it is comparing apples and oranges. I can't imagine ANYONE will compare a 30-second google-lookup virtual to a 10-mile mystery clue hike. To compare the numbers is a lot like saying "Football players are more talented than Baseball players, because the score in football games is a lot higher." The comparison of scoring just doesn't hold between the disparate activities.

But be that as it may, I am glad you have joined us over here at AQ, and WELCOME!

-wassamatta_u

Traditional boxes are great and I love doing them. However, when you are in a limited plant area it gets very hard to continue boxing without mega travel or events. With gas prices these are becoming more prohibitive. Virtuals and postals are nice ways to access boxes and stamps you otherwise could not access. It is not as good as the real thing but don't rain on our parade for enjoying these other styles to boxing!

Quote

I think perhaps this is nothing more than a proverbial tempest in a teapot.

I agree. It just sort of seems to be designed to be divisive.

I do postals...and I enjoy them for the mail art they are. I don't think getting a postal in the mail is the same as going out and finding a letterbox just as I don't think receiving a postcard is the same as traveling somewhere myself. It's fun; it's enjoyable; it's not the SAME thing.

And there are lots of people who count HHs in their F counts. I don't because I didn't DO anything to find the durn thing. But then, I don't bother making sure my online F count reflects everything I've found either (and my online P definitely count doesn't reflect my true Ps), so I guess I'm not a good example.

dewberry

Quote

The original purpose of letterboxing is being stretched to limits never intended by the pioneers of United States letterboxing.

This may be true, but as a good boxing buddy of mine says, there are lots of ways to play the game. I think that if you asked ten letterboxers what they like about letterboxing, you would probably get at least ten different answers. Someone who is into the art aspect of it would prefer a beautiful postal or LTC to a scenic hike leading to a traditional box with a store-bought stamp and spiral memo book logbook. The person who loves the outdoors and the scenic hike would prefer the latter.

Anyway, as others have noted, LTCs, postals, virtuals, and even hitchhikers don't count toward one's PFX count on this site, so people are doing them because they enjoy them, not to boost their numbers without leaving the house.

a.

I wonder if the inventor of the first computer to help him/her process large quantites of complex information would be dismayed by the use of his invention to create such things as x--rated web pages, my space/you tube or gaming and gambling sites that people spend large amounts of their day on.
After all, his complex, technical tool has been turned into a toy that even a 2 year old can use.

All things grow and change with time and many move beyond their original intended use. (You use Tupperware for food???) I agree with the other posts. Only "TRADITIONAL" finds count in your P/F/X count. That is the original intent of letterboxing and it still is the main component.

If letterboxing has given birth to other "mutant" children, should we treat them as a lower life form? They are different, but fun and enjoyable, and certainly not "disturbing" in any way... We will leave the "disturbing" to wassa!

The bottom line, is that from my perspective, there is no crime in the fun of virtuals, LTCs or postals...they are just another way to enjoy the carving and the hunting...especially when under several feet of snow....I can only carve rubber, pack boxes and make logbooks for so long before I enjoy the cyber-hunt of a virtual!

Box on! (and lighten up!)

~Cindy (Mrs. V of The Vs) (who is missing the hiking, enjoying snowshoeing, but realizing that you can't follow clues when the landmarks are buried and that carring a shovel while snowshoeing is dangerous!)

Quote

seems to be designed to be divisive

Absolutely, especially since those who will be most upset are those who DON'T use AQ currently and therefore will just assume all those types are "considered equal" rather than those current users, most of whom know how it really counts here and that those are just lots of fancy options for 'Stamp Art Collecting'.

Quote

there are lots of people who count HHs in their F counts. I don't because I didn't DO anything to find the durn thing

I totally agree with that one. PT as X, sure, that makes sense since you still have to meet the person but HH as F? or even P since there is no clue; I think the "founders" blew that part of PFX.

Welcome out of the closet, Chuck & Amy!

I meant to post something earlier about this, but I had to grind coffee, make tea, brush teeth, do the dishes... take out the trash... and unpack more stuff after our vacation last week.

I don't know if I'd call it disturbing... I'm partial to saying, "something just ain't right about that". But that's just semantics. I think I can count on one hand the number of virtuals I've solved (note: I didn't say found). It just ain't the same as getting out there and boxing.

However, to be fair, one must also look at the number of plants for each type. Traditional plants still outnumber virtuals and postals combined by a good amount. I don't know why the number of finds isn't closer to the number of plants, though. Maybe it's attrition, temporary boxes, listing of old retired boxes... maybe it's the weather... maybe it's limiting human conditions (eg, physical disabilities)... or maybe it's matter-of-choice human conditions (couch potato syndrome).

Whatever it might be, there are boxes out there waiting to be found. Some are long hikes, some are drive-bys. But they are out there.

Yes, OUT THERE. Outside! Out-of-doors! Where you gotta get up and move your butt!
Yes, OUT THERE!! Where the original box was! Or have y'all forgotten that the first letterbox was a challenging, difficult-to-navigate hike?

So... here's the rant: I make every effort to get outside and walk around at lunchtime. I might have to drive 8-10 miles one way to get to where there letterboxes are, but that's okay, because I don't stop to grab a heart-attack-in-a-sack (South Beach high protein bars!). Instead of wasting time stuffing my face with boogers and flies, I'm stuffing my lungs with fresh, clean air. Instead of clogging my arteries with all that garbage, I'm getting the blood pumping.

I don't find a box every time I go out (I've found most of them within a range of how far I can drive, find a box and drive back in time); sometimes I just go exploring. Sometimes I'll just be working on a mystery. Whether I find a box or not, when I get back to work I feel a LOT better about the rest of the day! (Of course, a find is always a good pick-me-up!)

So... am I agreeing with Mark? Yeah... I'm saying "something just ain't right about that".

There's a reason Mark's slogan is, "Get OUT THERE and Box!"

That's where it belongs...

O U T T H E R E

*S

Hmmmm....... I really have no idea where to start with this.
First, I have to say that I totally respect what Mark and Sue have done for the art of Letterboxing. But with that said, I can't really say anything positive about a couple of things posted on their, sorry, his blog. I can't understand that someone is intitled to their own opinion, and I have been known to blurt something out that other don't like, but if you don't like doing something, than don't do it and leave it alone. I for one have done some virtual letterboxing. When I am up late and can't sleep, I don't grab a flashlight and search for a letterbox out in the woods. I sit in front of my DELL and look for a few letterboxes. I suppose I could be looking for something else if I wanted. I would hope that in most minds, the virtual letterboxing is a better choice.

I know that Mark and Sue have done wonders for letterboxing and for the most part, bring wonders more to letterboxing everyday. You make your trips to Dartmoor, inviting others to join you. I have been there only once and seen just a small portion of that beautiful place. I wish more could see it. I can't say that letterboxing on a cruise ship really sounds like a cool idea. I can't say that heading up to the north country to a couple Inn's for a letterboxing adventure is a cool idea. What happened to not spending to much money? People can sit in front of their computers for hours printing down clues to look for letterboxes on land for less money than a cruise. They can spend more money filling their cars with gas for less money than hopping on a cruise ship.

I have a few dozen virtual boxes posted here. I posted a few that are random, but most of them teach you something. What could possibly be wrong with that? I am not ashamed of posting my virtual boxes and certainly not ashamed at looking for some.

Also, in the past I have been horrible for not logging in my letterbox finds. Maybe that is the case! Maybe everyone out there missed the memo! Too lazy to record finds. When you asnwer a virtual correctly, it automaticly records it as a find!

Now, Wanda and Pete have always been kind to me, as well as Mark and Sue. Wanda has been... ummm... oblivious to the evolution of letterboxing. My example would be the Cootie Crew. This has been a little side project I came up with, which I will be working more on shortly. It had come to my attention, by herself, that the Cootie Crew was foolish. Of course saying this to me before realizing, this was my idea! The Cootie Crew I figured was a way to get the kids more into letterboxing. I haven't been paying to much attention as the interest has died off, but..... With talk about more children involved in letterboxing, more letterboxes been hidden poorly, blaming newbies for not getting enough information about things, I looked at this little club as a learning tool. Children and adults alike could learn to cootie properly. Stealthyness. If you can plant a cootie on someone and not get caught, you can find, log, and then rehide a letterbox well enough to be found by other letterboxes and not a muggle. Enough said about the Cootie Crew for now. Boxing Buddies! Children love letterboxing with Boxing Buddies! Why would anyone bash something like this? I couldn't tell you how many of my friends growing up had a stuffed animal with them they could confide in when things went bad. I had one. So now a days, why not take them letterboxing? Why not give them their own stamps?
Why not? LTC's! Do you think that baseball players don't collect baseball cards? People that work for Coke can't collect Coke bottles of different shapes and sizes?

The point I'm trying to get at here is don't bash the food if you haven't tried it yet. If it looks gross, then leave it for someone else to eat! I have heard way to much bashing of what is popular right now and less about what positives are happening for letterboxing. As I finalize the finishing touches to my first hosted gathering this weekend, I just could let my feeling on the whole thing go! Beat me up now! Leave everyone else alone! I will still sleep well tonight!

I feel for the old skool letterboxing, but change is good! For some!
David (team new hampshire)
http://teamnewhampshire.blogspot.com

Quote

Traditional boxes are great and I love doing them. However, when you are in a limited plant area it gets very hard to continue boxing without mega travel or events. With gas prices these are becoming more prohibitive.

This is so true. I live in an area where most boxes are not accessible after dark. So, between work, kids,the price of gas, and daylight savings our boxing is often limited. Virtuals are great fun for my hubby and I to do together and a lot cheaper than those point and click computer games we love, ;) We don't count them in our find count, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy them. I can't say much about postals. I've just started doing them and still don't have an opinion, lol.

Florida Sunsets

PS -- Besides, no boxes other than Traditionals can be bestowed with Blue Diamonds... ;-)

*S

Is it a bad thing that half the letterboxing activity takes place in the comfort of our own homes?

This, I think, is a little (unintentionally I am sure) misleading. Does anyone REALLY think that if there were no postals/virtuals, that the "statistics" page would show significantly MORE traditional finds/plants? I don't think so. I don't think I have EVER heard of anyone saying "Sorry, I have to cancel our Traditional Letterboxing Excursion so I can sit here and work on this Virtual!" If anything, I believe there are MORE traditional plants actually made because of Postals - very often, when the stamp comes home, it gets planted in the wild... and very often, this is a plant that would not otherwise have been made. There is something compelling about having that little piece of carved rubber sitting in a drawer that makes you want to go out and share it with the world.

No, I think if there were no virtuals and postals, the total number of finds/plants of traditionals would still be pretty much what it is today. I don;t think they impinge upon traditionals at all.

-wassamatta_u

I love "traditional" letterboxing. I am no fitness fanatic, but I like to hike, get outdoors and enjoy nature. I would rather spend the day letterboxing than in front of the computer any day.
My kids LOVE to be outdoors. In the warm weather they swim in our pool, we go to the beach, the park, they ride their bikes, rollerskate, go to the playground and play in our backyard. In the winter they love to play in the snow and go sledding at the local high school (each going down the LARGE hill 20-30 times and walking back up by themselves) and go ice skating. They are not lazy. But they DO NOT like letterboxing.
It's hard for me to go out and find "traditional" boxes. Postals allow me to enojy the art, practice carving and see stamps from people and places I would probably never see otherwise.
Who are you to say that's disturbing? Your lack of insight is what is disturbing to me.

The example of "half the finds are postals/virtuals" is a bit misleading, because it is comparing apples and oranges.

I totally agree with wassa on this. I really wish people would refrain from making derogatory comments about things that other people really enjoy. And there are those who don't have the time, money or physical ability to go out and find traditional boxes.

It is sad that my first impression of you, Chuck & Amy, is that you are snobbish and condescending. I hope you will be able to change this impression in the future.

TG

Well, I'm happy to report that I try all aspects of letterboxing. I may find that I don't like it but I reserve any opinions on it until I have tried it.

I don't happen to care for virtuals since I don't like sitting at a computer that long-- I like to get outside and hike. BUT I DO like LTC's and postals for the reason that they expand my ideas. I see boxes from all over the world! AND I then can take these ideas to develop new and interesting boxes in the wild. My carvings have improved, logbooks have improved, and the overall presentation of the box has improved because I have learned from others this way. I imagine that if I was more of a puzzle solver I may even learn some new puzzles from virtuals as well. I have also made contact with new people in this way and planted their boxes in my area. Everyone wins! How can this be disturbing?

People who like to hike will continue to hike. Those that hate hiking will not hike. Taking away virtuals, LTC's, and postals would not change that.

Wolf *who invites others to share her passion of a good hike, but also is receptive to what they have to share*

After reading the 16 or so replies to this original message, it does my heart good to see a civil discussion about my post since that's the real reason I post things on our blog; really my blog, as David of TeamNH says!

My method is to bring an awareness and discussion. It was meant as an alarm. A wakening call to those of you who may not know that there are other ways to box and, in the more traditional sense, that this isn't really letterboxing.

Sure, it's an activity that you can choose to partake in since this is a free country and we're not espousing that you should all do everything the traditionalists say. Our rant was aimed at the high percentage of virtual to traditional boxes. Sure - rainy, cold day - why not fire up the Dell and hit a few virtuals if you please. Cold winter - send out or subscribe to a postal. It's not our cup of tea but different strokes for different folks.

But the half and half mix? That really isn't right.

The long and the short of it is that you'll do what you like since this is a free society. But we felt we wanted to point out this disturbing trend and hopefully see a change in that old pie chart through a bit of awareness. While we aim to be accepting of all letterboxers, we feel, like our parents did once in a while, that a little stern warning might make for a lesson learned.

Mark

Quote

The long and the short of it is that you'll do what you like since this is a free society. But we felt we wanted to point out this disturbing trend and hopefully see a change in that old pie chart through a bit of awareness. While we aim to be accepting of all letterboxers, we feel, like our parents did once in a while, that a little stern warning might make for a lesson learned.

No disrespect intended, but isn't the characterization of this trend as "disturbing" at odds with the idea of being accepting?

PPS -- For the record, I don't really care if anyone has more fun / finds it more convenient / whatever solving virtuals and receiving postals. It's your choice.

All I'm saying is that people need to get out more and do more outside.

Go leave footprints somewhere... --unknown

*S

We are accepting of other forms of "letterboxing" be they virtual, postals, boxing buddies, etc. but feel they should never eclipse the traditional form of letterboxing since this is how the hobby was started - out in the wilds like Dartmoor and in the US when Erik & Susan Davis planted their Prayer Rock letterbox.

No disrespect taken.

David - one more thing - you commented on our trips to hither and yon. By no means to we think that this is an activity that all can afford or even want to participate but it's another way to play the game. It's much more important to just get out there and box!

If we were running more trips that we were letterboxing, then that would be disturbing as in the analogy above. They are just different venues in which to play the game for those that can and would like to participate.

Mark

All I'm saying is that people need to get out more and do more outside.

I agree, but criticizing what someone else likes is not motivational. I have reached a lot of people through other forms of art change that have branched from postals. When we meet I like to share my passion of hiking. It may not be easy for them, but I have gotten some people with health issues to join me. I think they were even surprised at how far they went. They would not have been inclined to try what I enjoy if I mocked what they enjoyed.

My 2 cents is that Letterboxing is a hobby that knows no limitations, even if some people DO have them. ANYONE can enjoy. A homebound person .... a person who has little time due to being a caregiver for a family member, whatever. If someone can sit at the computer, they can do virtuals, if they're able to get to the mailbox, they can become part of a Postal ring. Etc. I'm glad we're able to get out and do the hiking and enjoy the great outdoors... but I'm equally pleased that someone who doesn't have that option can take part in this awesome passtime !!!
Besides......
The only thing that "COUNTS" on our tally are traditionals... that's the meat and potatoes......... everything else is "Gravy".
Right ??

Dina B. likes gravy. lol

We are accepting of other forms of "letterboxing" be they virtual, postals, boxing buddies, etc. but feel they should never eclipse the traditional form of letterboxing since this is how the hobby was started

If it wasn't for the Buddies we would have not found nearly the few boxes we have. and If not for the postals we would not have seen how truly amazing a carve can be.

I so not know about any pioneer vision of Letterboxing but I do know that when and only when I can I GO OUT to box. But most of my boxing is limited to Virtuals and Postals.

I think the pie charts would be vastly different if the oldtimers were to log their traditional finds!!!!
they have so many more than us "newcomers"

~Aurora

Quote

They are just different venues in which to play the game for those that can and would like to participate.

I'm confused! Which is it?
This was posted in regards to my analogy post about your trips hither and yon!
But if someone wants to letterbox in other ways.............
Need I say more?
Sounds like what you do in letterboxing is just fine, but what everyone else does isn't!
Am I wrong?

Who is also jealous you get more hits on your blog that I!
David (team new hampshire)
http://teamnewhampshire.blogspot.com

I think the pie charts would be vastly different if the oldtimers were to log their traditional finds!!

HAaaahaahaahaaaaahaaahahaha....!!!

Might help even MORE if they listed all their PLANTS, too! Then folks like Florida Sunsets and IrishRef might discover that there are letterboxes all around them!

*S

If it's any consolation Chuck & Amy, I've run into people that would argue with me when all I did was answer a question posed with information gathered from the stated "rules and etiquette" of this site.

I'm just curious as to why you think they need consolation?

You may be snobbish and condescending, but I didn't come to that conclusion from your post.

I'm sure you aren't alone. But I'm also sure that I am not alone. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but when they put down other people's enjoyment, that is just wrong.

And for those of you who think that people should just "get outside", I have to tell you, I dislike outside. I have never been an outdoorsy person. Too much dirt, animal droppings, too many bugs in the summer, wind, sun, rain. Yuck! Give me a nice clean climate-controlled environment anytime. :P

TG

I am not really sure why this is disturbing at all.

I can see why it might seem to be....

but I can get... I dunno... 10 virtuals in an hour or so, while it would take an hour to get a regular box - which means that if I decide to do some virtuals one night, I might not "catch up" in a week to a month.

Given how easy it is to get virtuals, I think it's a testament to the fact that most people like getting out and walking that it's only 50% virtuals.

A more interesting question might be to look at overall trends and see whether the average number of boxes found per boxer per day/week/month/some time frame is going up or down. If a rise in virtuals corresponds to a drop in "walk-to" boxes, then there might be a problem. I am going to guess that there isn't any such drop.

Quote

Might help even MORE if they listed all their PLANTS, too! Then folks like Florida Sunsets and IrishRef might discover that there are letterboxes all around them!

That would certainly help. By the way, the guys were so excited about the two 99 bottles boxes you posted in Florida that they are now planning a camping trip after this cold front leaves, lol!
Florida Sunsets