Speaking as someone who is slowly becoming more and more less able - it is a great benefit to me to know the aspects of the clues before striking out on a "drive by" that is going to actually take a 2 mile hike to retrieve. My leg is going down hill and there's not much to do about it at this point but I am using the Letterboxing as my way to get out and go and do something fun and relieve the stress and help cope. I just wish more people understood that it is so much of a joy to have a focus other than the everyday ins and outs of doctors and tests - to go out and be normal and have an adventure that is all yours is truly a blessing that takes you out of the situation you can rarely escape from and transports you to beautiful places and allows into a moment in peoples lives that means something to them and the art they have created. It is fabulous for me . I truly have a blast and love sharing times of normalcy with my boys out on the trail just like all is right with the world.

A big thanks to all who give a complete run down in their clues so we know what we are getting ourselves into!

Enjoy the journey , they are all truly wonderful gifts,
teekasue

Hi teekasue,

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Speaking as someone who is slowly becoming more and more less able - it is a great benefit to me to know the aspects of the clues before striking out . . .

My husband uses google earth along with the clues to locate landmarks, parking lots closer to boxes, etc. It has made the difference between having a chance at reaching the box and spending hours trying to figure out where to go, if our rig will fit there, etc. only to leave deflated. At first it felt a bit like cheating but on the rough days I need all the help I can get so I had to get over it.

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I just wish more people understood that it is so much of a joy to have a focus other than the everyday ins and outs of doctors and tests - to go out and be normal and have an adventure that is all yours is truly a blessing that takes you out of the situation you can rarely escape from and transports you to beautiful places and allows into a moment in peoples lives that means something to them and the art they have created. It is fabulous for me . I truly have a blast and love sharing times of normalcy with my boys out on the trail just like all is right with the world.

I can SO relate. It's an escape - a time when you can actually forget (even if only for a short time) that you have a life altering situation. Yes, you're experiencing normal life! What a blessing.

A few times I've written to placers asking questions about placements. It's hard to do without explaining your disabiling situation (not always what one wants to do) but it has helped. I don't know where you live but feel free to email me about any of my placements - most are in OR & WA.

Teekasue, I hope we meet someday!

Kurious Jo

I really understand what you meant by it giving you another focus. If it weren't for boxing, geocaching and esp. postal boxing for a focus I think I would have lost myself to depression by now.

The never ending doctor's appt.s only to be told that they can't really help you all they can do is manage your pain, and the days with pain so bad you think your going to go crazy, not to mention the side effects from medicine that alter who you are, make you gain weight, and generally feel crappy.

If I didn't have AQ and the people here who have become such a huge part of my life, I can't even imagine where I would be. Not in a good place, I know that.

Red Soup

Independence is certainly important to all people with disabilities. If you are boxing with friends any box is obtainable through their help. That is not the same as being able to independently find the box. I did three indoor boxes and actually thought about this a good bit. A wheelchair can get to place the box is located. However, was the box too high or low to be considered accessible?

Keep the icon strictly to those that can be found independently. This also brings up the point of providing more specific details on any box you mark as handicap accessible. This would give potential handicapped finders a better understanding of what awaits them.

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Independence is certainly important to all people with disabilities. If you are boxing with friends any box is obtainable through their help. That is not the same as being able to independently find the box. I did three indoor boxes and actually thought about this a good bit. A wheelchair can get to place the box is located. However, was the box too high or low to be considered accessible?

Keep the icon strictly to those that can be found independently. This also brings up the point of providing more specific details on any box you mark as handicap accessible. This would give potential handicapped finders a better understanding of what awaits them.

But this raises the issue of what KIND of disability the clue writer and box hunter have in mind. A clue that might be accessible to a box seeker with limited walking ability and one that might be accessible at a blind boxer are not going to be the same letterbox.

One size does not fit all....so writing "perfect" clues is almost an impossibility. I think that the accessible icon could be applied to letterboxes that *might* be appropriate, with an encouragement in the clues for the seeker to contact the hider. I love the fact that letterboxing has allowed me to "meet" so many wonderful people, who have offered advice on the potential accessibility of their letterboxes.

Lisascenic

...and replying (late) to the earlier suggestions that the handicapped icon be replaced with a stroller icon, I have to say that while surely meant kindly, this would be considered very, very, very offensive to many members of the disabled community.

People with disabilities are NOT children. (Unless they are children with disabilities, but you know what I mean.)

Equating a person who uses a wheelchair, or a deaf person, or a person with developmental disabilities with a toddler is demeaning and dismissive.

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My husband uses google earth along with the clues to locate landmarks, parking lots closer to boxes, etc.

Thank you so much for suggesting Google Earth. I found something new in the process. When you get a Google Map on the link from AQ--there's a box in the right corner for Map or Satellite or Hybrid. If you choose Hybrid, you can zoom down to the street and see landmarks. We used that today to search for some trees in a clue. While Jolly Roger's knee is messed up, we need true drive-bys--the satellite picture showed us that we could drive right up to the box. I got out to get the box while he stayed in the car.
Try the Hybrid option on the Google Map--I found it clearer and much more user friendly than the Google Earth.
Chickadee

Which reminds me.... I've been meaning to change the icon to mean "wheelchair accessible" instead of "handicap accessible" since it's those disabilities that involve wheelchairs that icon is primarily directed at. Perhaps make things more clear and less apt for misunderstandings.

-- Ryan

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Try the Hybrid option on the Google Map--I found it clearer and much more user friendly than the Google Earth.

I love the hybrid function on Google Map, but Mapquest has more up to date satellite images. When letterboxing or caching, we use both and I've found that some of the parks in NE Florida are not even built yet in the pics on Google, but the park and trials are clearly visible on Mapquest. Sometimes you may need both resources.

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Which reminds me.... I've been meaning to change the icon to mean "wheelchair accessible" instead of "handicap accessible" since it's those disabilities that involve wheelchairs that icon is primarily directed at. Perhaps make things more clear and less apt for misunderstandings.
-- Ryan

This is a week late. I get AQ email in digest form so I lag behind.

Ryan - I guess I can see how someone who's not disabled would equate the universal disabled symbol to wheelchairs. In real life it it's only a symbol that represents much more than that. It feels wrong to construe it to mean only the percentage of folks in chairs.

But on the other hand, you're in the un-enviable position of trying to do the right thing by all. Just thoughts:
1) There's simply too many types of physical limitations for you to address.
2) Even if you did understand the various limitations enough to address them, the general Lb population wouldn't understand them enough to provide useful info to all. Gosh, there's so many types of wheelchairs, I'm not sure I can address wheelchair accessibility! Reach is a factor, body size, etc.
3) I can't speak for all, but over time I've learned that it's not realistic to expect the world to revolve around my problem. I simply have to do the best I can with the given situation . . . and be content with that. ("It's not what happens to you that counts, it's what you do with it") For some reason, when it comes to letterboxes, this is MUCH easier said than done. * laugh *

That said here's a few ideas that could help and may or may not be possible in the webworld:
- A few times while entering my boxes on AQ I've wished I could put a note (just a few words) by the handicapped symbol to explain a potential problem that I'm aware of. That could be helpful. One could even put a note to the handicapped/disabled to contact the placer. Yes, this contradicts what I said above. But if this can easily be done, disabled people could address issues that they are famaliar with when logging placements.
- If you could make people think twice before leaving out the distance and elevation gain that would be great. We notice that in some regions people tend to blow off this key information. And of course the nature of clues make it virtually impossible to guess distance. So there are areas where there is no way to separate potential hunts from "no way" hunts. The only way is to limit yourself to drive-bys. That is a solution - not a great one though.

Again Ryan, thanks for everything. Especially thanks for keeping the disability symbol . . . whatever it means on AQ. I'll quit rambling now. * wink *

Kurious Jo

I think the conversation around that change was if it said wheelchair accesible it helps parents with toddlers in strollers to know it was accesible by that means.
Was that not decided so as to help in those situations?

now I am getting 'old' tee hee, and my brain is fuzzy at times, but I think I remember that was a big factor in deciding that.
Pilgrims

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- If you could make people think twice before leaving out the distance and elevation gain that would be great. We notice that in some regions people tend to blow off this key information. And of course the nature of clues make it virtually impossible to guess distance. So there are areas where there is no way to separate potential hunts from "no way" hunts. The only way is to limit yourself to drive-bys. That is a solution - not a great one though.

I wish I better understood how to figure distance and elevation gain. I usually leave these blank, because I don't have the SLIGHTEST CLUE of what to write. I don't own a gps or a pedometer, and Google Earth doesn't really cut it.

What am I missing out, here?

There's a really great local website that rates trails in terms of wheelchair access. She's wonderful at describing the conditions that trail users might encounter.

http://www.wheelchairtrails.net/

Finally, I know that there are visually impaired letterboxers, and I wonder if using the "handicapped" symbol to strictly denote wheelchair accessible letterboxers might be exclusionary. I dunno. I feel that the use of this symbol is the beginning of a discussion between a planter and a seeker. The symbol indicates, to my mind, that the planter has given some consideration to the accessibility of the letterbox, and believes that it is accessible to *some* letterboxers with disabilities. I figure that any letterbox planter who uses that symbol invites the seeker to ask further questions.

Lisascenic

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I usually leave these blank, because I don't have the SLIGHTEST CLUE of what to write.

I now consider it my duty, as I find your boxes, to report the distances and elevation gains of your boxes.

Regarding my recently reported find, 0 meters elevation gain, 6 meters distance.

Your humble servant,
OBJuan

Hi all,
It has been awhile, but hopefully the funk is no longer upon us!

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My husband uses google earth along with the clues to locate landmarks, parking lots closer to boxes, etc. It has made the difference between having a chance at reaching the box and spending hours trying to figure out where to go, if our rig will fit there, etc. only to leave deflated. At first it felt a bit like cheating but on the rough days I need all the help I can get so I had to get over it.

Kurious - I had NO idea Google Earth was even slightly cheating- with 4 boys, a bad leg and a dog - it is a life saver! we get the lay of the land and figure what parts of the hike the boys can do on their own (oldest is 15) while I sit and enjoy the unususal peace and quiet as they hunt and fetch things for "the Queen' aka Me....It's good to be the Queen...; ) I sometimes make the whole hike other times I let them go on without me and haul it back and forth. That way no one is ever going to know what the heck we are doing! Anything that i can use to keep my boys interested and doig things together with us as a family I will use it! My hubby figures clues like a wild man , (I almost have him carving- the bug
has almost bitten him- i can't wait to see what he comes up with-) then we go out while he holds down the fort keeping track of sports scores and the levels of his latest W.o.W. characters- he has yet to convince me of their value.

Our family has changed a lot in the last couple years with my wonderous gift - this leg of mine - and with that we have had to change our activities - Letterboxing has come along just as we needed it ...it is US and we are hunting! Driveby / Accessible - Wheelchair /Handicapped - I still check each clue in my area when it pops up and look to see what it will take to get there....all so far have been worth the fun ! Even when you get lost and turned around and have to go back again the next weekend - man I love a challenge! If I ever get to OR/WA area I would love to check out the boxes you have hidden. I am in So CA, if you are ever down my way drop a line and I will fill you in on some adventure filled boxes "the rig " could handle with you along and without - it's good to have company though isn't it? I happen to love a large posse! hahaha

Happy hunting, enjoy the journey,
Teekasue

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QuoteI usually leave these blank, because I don't have the SLIGHTEST CLUE of what to write.

I now consider it my duty, as I find your boxes, to report the distances and elevation gains of your boxes.

What a GREAT idea! I wonder if other placers would be open to having that info relayed to them?

On to catching up with the rest of the email-

Kurious Jo

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If I ever get to OR/WA area I would love to check out the boxes you have hidden. I am in So CA, if you are ever down my way drop a line and I will fill you in on some adventure filled box

Too back we didn't know about each other sooner. We were down in SoCal around the Christmas holidays. We placed a few boxes. Even though it's not marked as disabled (impossible to retrieve the box from a wheelchair), I'm certain you and your family could get Gold Rush, it's a drive-by with sidewalks. The stamp is nothing special - just a funny little thing.

I love California weather. Not sure when we'll get a chance to get down there again.

Happy hunting!
Kurious Jo

I jsut looked at your Goldrush? ...It is a bit North for us but if we ever get up that way we for sure will hunt it. Luckily my leg doesn't confine me to wheels as of yet. For now we are constantly on the look out for steps and long hills that might be too much...and to tell the truth it really depends on the day. Some I feel as though I could conquer Mount Anything , then I pay for the next 3 or 4 days, but other days any kind of conquering is out of the question! Except for hopefully conquering my own stuff, I have to much to do to be down and out about anything much less things that I can't do a darn thing about!! People around me get mad at me when I feel good and over do it but I feel like I have a life to lead and have fun with my boys. They are only going to be little for so long. I figure it is worth paying for the fun if it a great time and we are together.....that is what letterboxing has given us in spades!!! I love the Handicapped icon just so I can figure it is less intense...I also box with my dad who is chair bound so it is great for that as well.

Thanks for the thoughts,happy hunting , enjoy the journey,
teekasue

<<<<To push a stroller to near a tree then the adult climb under the tree or through the brush is not the same as a wheelchair having to be within arms reach of a box. Sorry, they are very much not the same.>>>>


Oh you are so correct. I recently had surgery and was relegated to a wheelchair for mobility. Folks just don't realize how limited you are in a chair. It seemed that everything I wanted was about 6 inches higher than I could reach. I also found that using the motorized carts at Walmart, people were either very kind or just didn't pay me any attention.....such as walking right in front of me or totally blocking the aisle. Everybody ought to have to have that perspective for a while to give them an appreciation of having all limbs to use!
Zoe

The wheelchair thing is hard. My 5 yr old (Little Man) is disabled and in a wheelc hair. Like you said I either deal with friendly people, rude people or ignorant people. I am slowly learning to ignore these people.

GroovyChick

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The wheelchair thing is hard. My 5 yr old (Little Man) is disabled and in a wheelchair. Like you said I either deal with friendly people, rude people or ignorant people. I am slowly learning to ignore these people.

I think there's also the group of people who aren't sure about the correct way to treat your son, for fear of doing the right thing. Sometimes it is hard to be helpful, without invading someone's personal space. Must be extra challenging with a child. Kids are so curious about anything or person that is unusual, and parents are so worried about offending.

Lisa

There are those that don't know how to handle the issue--I can understand that. I am not ashamed of my son, because it wasn't his fault God chose to make him this way. He is truly a blessing and definitely an adventure every day! My son loves other children and is always excited when he hears them. Most children are curious, but in a good way. They love his chair because it has wheels that light up. At school, all the other children want to be his buddy and help him with things. Children today are more accepting than they used to be.

Deana

That is WONDERFUL that your son is so well accepted at school!!!!! Having a (neurological) disability myself, elementary and middle school were tough for me because I didn't fit in at all. But when I got to high school that changed, and the students were very accepting of me and understanding about my disabilities. It's great to see that you have such a positive attitude about all of this! Your son sounds like a truly wonderful person!!!!!!!!!
My mom taught a young boy who used a wheelchair and absolutely loved him! He would come into the classroom and everyone would come to say hi to him, even though he couldn't speak. What a big smile that produced from the young boy!

ASL Girl

There are those that don't know how to handle the issue--I can understand that. I am not ashamed of my son, because it wasn't his fault God chose to make him this way. He is truly a blessing and definitely an adventure every day! My son loves other children and is always excited when he hears them. Most children are curious, but in a good way. They love his chair because it has wheels that light up. At school, all the other children want to be his buddy and help him with things. Children today are more accepting than they used to be.

Deana

I am so glad you're experience in school ended up good. I was afraid that Little Man would be shuffled away and not included in the regular school. Fortunately this school isn't that way. Little Man is in both a special ed class and regular ed class. The interaction with the kids is wonderful for my son. He is definitely a special person.

GroovyChick

<<<<I was afraid that Little Man would be shuffled away and not included in the regular school.>>>>

Actually, I believe that federal law says that SpEd kids must be included to the greatest extent possible with RegEd kids......and I've yet to see a kid who couldn't benefit from Art or PE or some other class.....if it's only for the socialization. Unfortunately, too many parents are intimidated by the "authority" of the school. They are the ones who have the authority and need to ask for those things that they reasonably think would benefit their children.

As a teacher, I always ask parents if there is anything they think we need to add to the child's course of study.....and it certainly is not always about academics.
Zoe

You're thoughts are right on, zoemomma. Parents often do have to be the advocate for their children. My parents have had to advocate to get certain accomodations or other things set in place for me to have the best education possible, and they didn't let the school authority intimidate them. They kept pressing for what they knew was right and what needed to happen. In the end, their perserverance paid off.


Actually, I believe that federal law says that SpEd kids must be included to the greatest extent possible with RegEd kids......and I've yet to see a kid who couldn't benefit from Art or PE or some other class.....if it's only for the socialization. Unfortunately, too many parents are intimidated by the "authority" of the school. They are the ones who have the authority and need to ask for those things that they reasonably think would benefit their children.

As a teacher, I always ask parents if there is anything they think we need to add to the child's course of study.....and it certainly is not always about academics.
Zoe

Hi, I'm replying as a way of introducing myself as well as agreeing with the need for a focus in the handicapped individual's life. I've had 4 spinal fusions and am about to have a hip replacement due to a rare form of arthritis. I've been fighting going full-time into the wheelchair; but, have become dependent on it to get out of the house. I am the mother of an extremely active 12 year old who dances competitively and each day I feel as if she is slipping further away from me because there are so many things I can no longer share with her. Letterboxing is becoming that bridge as well as my way of keeping from drowning in the despair of my condition. We are getting out and exploring when it would be all too easy to just stay at home wallowing in self pity.

And regarding the question regarding the need for two icons... I personally appreciate all the information that I can get. I cannot lean down to the ground at all (four metal rods & a steel plate kinda keep that from happening plus my knees are shot). Whenever I see that wheelchair icon, I know that I have a chance at finding the box... but, even that isn't for sure because of my lack of mobility. But I greatly enjoy the puzzles and the challenges and don't want the boxes to be "gimmees" just because of my issues. So mucho kudos to those who plant with the needs of us handicapped boxers in mind! You'll never know how much your caring helps!

I used to looooove competing athletically. Letterboxing helps give me a reason to exercise, after I became unable.
I'd recommed getting a "grabber" to make boxing easier.

Letterboxing makes me happy.

I have several friends who were raised by parents who used wheelchairs, and I don't think any of them considered their parent's lack of mobility as something that kept them from being close to their parent. And goodness knows, I have only grown closer to my sweetie, since he shattered his spine and suffered a spinal cord injury.

It really isn't any of my business, but do you have access to a support group of people in similar situations? You might benefit from their insight.

As far as the letterboxing thing goes, I agree with the person who suggested you contact the placer. They could give you better information about the accessibility of their letterbox.

I commend you for facing these challenges!

Lisa

No way...I have a busted tailpipe, too....hurts after sitting for a bit.....of course, I still do, but it's one reason I decided to get away from desk work.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought that the controversy was over the drive by and the wheel chair accessible symbols. Hmmm... Yeah, I do see the problem. Since I have had my daughter with me, I have been lucky enough to have the help. But, the handicap symbol should mean that someone who is bound to a wheelchair can access it from a wheelchair. Otherwise, it is fairly worthless, right?