Perhaps I should really say: Lock&lock boxes and big baggies don't mix.

We've had discussions about 'going commando' when it comes to lock&lock boxes. Kirbert has put forth the theory that "With a baggie, there's a significant chance that a finder will catch the baggie in the seal when closing the box, .... causing the container to leak. This may be especially true when a very small L&L is used and must be packed very carefully to get the corners of the baggie to stay inside while closing." Well this weekend I have experienced this. During a maintenance trip to 5 event-placed boxes, I found one of my assigned letterboxes, as Kirbert describes - the baggie was sticking out of one of the corners of the lock&lock: like this.

The box was filled with water, even the extra baggie that the logbook was in was filled up with water. The baggies appeared to be sealed and I didn't notice any holes. I dried everything out but the logbook (a lovely thing, made with a faux leather cover and affixed with faux jewels) was completely soaked so I took it home (I'm using the freezer method to slowly thaw it out and hopefully save the more delicate pages).

I'm not venting or complaining, just informing and sharing that the Kirbert theory actually happened to one of my letterboxes. Made me realize that baggies that need to be carefully stuffed into the lock&lock box are not a good idea. Also that the extra baggie covering the logbook did absolutely nothing to prevent water from getting to the logbook. I'm going to put the logbook (I'm feeling confident I can salvage it) into a felt pocket and go commando - no baggies.

It's okay, you can vent and complain. I would.

The only thing I have to say is: I find it disappointing that we have to continually "dumb down" what should be a very simple thing to begin with. The next thing you know, we'll have to hire gnomes to guard the boxes and scold people and beat them with sticks when they screw up closing the boxes.

*S

Emphasis on big bags. An overly large bag can interfere with the seal of any box.

I wouldn't be too quick to go commando in Snapware or other imitation Lock&Locks. Although some people refer to them by the name "Lock&Lock," they aren't, and they aren't as reliable. You may get lucky. You may not.

Even the driest box can get left open by the wrong person. Everything's a gamble and the best thing you can do is improve your odds.

The next thing you know, we'll have to hire gnomes to guard the boxes

Possibly an ad in GeoCachers Weekly would turn up some applicants.

Interesting. I think this is especially true of the small boxes with too much stuff crammed in them. I've spent several minutes just trying to get everything to fit in the tupperware so the baggies don't get stuck in the seal. It can be nearly impossible for certain boxes.

Also a good argument for finding a hiding spot that is dry to begin with wherever possible, like under a rock, and definitely not in a depression where water collects. (Hollow trees can be very wet - that's often why they are hollow - they rotted out from being wet all the time). I consider that my first line of defensive. The 2nd line is the tupperware and the last is the baggie. Also, the cheap baggies are pretty useless.

Thanks for sharing the photo.

I wouldn't be too quick to go commando in Snapware or other imitation Lock&Locks. Although some people refer to them by the name "Lock&Lock," they aren't, and they aren't as reliable. You may get lucky. You may not.

And I happened to see an example this Spring, about a couple of weeks ago. I found a cache with a missing tab - the contents were wet but not soaked. I thought it strange to see a lock&lock with a broken/missing tab. I have had lock&lock caches/letterboxes out in the wild for years and never has a tab broken off. I looked at the bottom of the container and there was a label that said it was a dollarama container. That explained it.

Also a good argument for finding a hiding spot that is dry to begin with wherever possible, like under a rock, and definitely not in a depression where water collects. (Hollow trees can be very wet - that's often why they are hollow - they rotted out from being wet all the time).

This one was on flat ground under a small 5' cedar tree. My guess is that melting snow and probably water dripping off the cedar after rainstorms may have filled up the box (we had a couple of warm spells with rainstorms this winter).

...finding a hiding spot that is dry...I consider that my first line of defensive. The 2nd line is the tupperware and the last is the baggie.

This is a good tactic.

This is an interesting topic here.

We have 3 boxes that are small round LnL with no baggies. Been out there 9 months. no problems.

Thought I would share. We do have a couple of the small rectangle LnLs that only the stamp is in a bag - mostly for ink issues - not everyone wipes the ink off. One of those small cheap jewelry bags. It is also fine.

Lock&lock boxes and big baggies don't mix.

What I've found helpful -- with a L&L or any other container -- is to put the log book into the bottom corner of the baggie, squeeze as much air out as possible when closing, then fold the excess top and side of the baggie toward the same side of the log book and put that side down. Hence the weight of the log book is holding all those pesky corners down in the bottom of the container where they can't get into trouble.

It's counterintuitive to fold both excesses to the same side. Normally, once you fold the top to one side, you'd wrap the side to the other side, and end up with one loose flap or the other on the top where it can foul the lid. You must make the conscious decision to fold everything to the same side and put it on the bottom of the container.

Emphasis on big bags. An overly large bag can interfere with the seal of any box.

Small baggies have their own problems. They don't seem to last long, as people cram things into them. Fact is, I've found that the larger bags seem to work better as long as one is careful packing.

I checked on one box recently that originally had the log book in one baggie and the stamp in a smaller baggie. It had been repacked by someone who crammed the log book into the smaller baggie and left the stamp in the great big baggie.

I find it disappointing that we have to continually "dumb down" what should be a very simple thing to begin with.

When people have been known to put the lid on a L&L upside down, you know exactly what level you're dealing with.

I have had lock&lock caches/letterboxes out in the wild for years and never has a tab broken off.

I have bruxism, which means I use a tooth guard when sleeping. I keep that tooth guard in a small L&L during the day to keep the cockroaches off of it. That means that L&L gets opened and reclosed at least twice a day, once in the morning and once at bedtime. It's been doing that for, I dunno, more than a year anyway. Flaps are still fine.

Doesn't get cold, though. I dunno if opening and closing in freezing weather might be harder on the flap hinges.

Doesn't get cold, though. I dunno if opening and closing in freezing weather might be harder on the flap hinges.

Doesn't seem to be. My lock&locks have been out in freezing Canadian winters for years. I get a lot of geocacher visits so they're being opened up about once a week all year round.

Doesn't get cold, though.

I foresee another Kirbert test! You could keep your mouth guard in the freezer for a while! ;-)

Just kidding with you.

Knit Wit

When people have been known to put the lid on a L&L upside down, you know exactly what level you're dealing with.

NOW THAT'S ROUGH!!

I checked on one box recently that originally had the log book in one baggie and the stamp in a smaller baggie. It had been repacked by someone who crammed the log book into the smaller baggie and left the stamp in the great big baggie.

Which is why I advocate writing "Logbook" and "Stamp" on the baggies with sharpie.

Doesn't mean the sharpie doesn't wear off, or the bag ripped and someone replaced it.

I buy the littlest ziplock bags in the store -- half the size of sandwich bags -- to help cut down on the bulk in the box.

I did like the method for folding the bag sides and weighting it down with the book.

KuKu

I keep that tooth guard in a small L&L during the day to keep the cockroaches off of it.

Where's the EEEWWW button when you need it?

deniserows
over cockroaches

Which is why I advocate writing "Logbook" and "Stamp" on the baggies with sharpie.

Doesn't mean the sharpie doesn't wear off, or the bag ripped and someone replaced it.

A small piece of clear packing tape over the writing keeps it looking great! ;o)

Pete - TMP

A small piece of clear packing tape over the writing keeps it looking great! ;o)

I also do this along all of the seams to help prevent tears - especially on those little jewelry bags that seem to tear much more easily.

HPL

...put the log book into the bottom corner of the baggie, squeeze as much air out as possible when closing, then fold the excess top and side of the baggie toward the same side of the log book and put that side down.

I may experiment with some elastic bands to hold the baggie flaps neatly folded. I made some large ones to hold a rolled-up towel and some spare clothes neatly in my backpack for the 3-mile hike to work, and they worked great. Making some smaller bands for Lbox's should be easy enough.

Spike

I may experiment with some elastic bands to hold the baggie flaps neatly folded.

But if a BadBoxer™ can't be bothered to make sure the baggie isn't sticking out of the box are they going to bother to use the bands properly?

I keep that tooth guard in a small L&L during the day to keep the cockroaches off of it.

TOO MUCH INFORMATION

Really... ever heard of pest control? And don't lay any "these are Florida bugs" on me, pal. I lived in Florida for eight years -- near the headwaters of the St Johns River. Spent enough time out there that I once saw an airboat tipped over by mosquitoes. And there was only five of them!

Even so, I had a bugman that killed just about everything except the stankin' raccoons. They tried to exterminate the exterminator, but eventually he set loose a few skeeters near their den and the raccoons disappeared.

*S(wampSAELS)

...are they going to bother to use the bands properly?

There is no such thing as "idiot proof," but it doesn't usually hurt to include ideas or devices to aid those who DO understand, eh?

I'm still of the opinion that most boxers DO get it and make the effort to sustain boxes they find. By planting boxes, I take my risks with the rest of 'em.

Spike

There is no such thing as "idiot proof," but it doesn't usually hurt to include ideas or devices to aid those who DO understand, eh?

In the case of the letterbox I mentioned - the one with the baggie caught in the seal. I really think it was just an oversight. All the other boxes in the series were fine and sealed up nicely. Mistakes happen. As a hider I'm interested in what can go wrong and how to minimize damage. So far I've learned that a large baggie with stiff zips that are hard to fold up tight can be a problem. And that relying on the baggies to protect the contents is generally not going to help when the box is filled with water (I suppose nothing will), but they are OK for general everyday minimal water issues.

I'm still of the opinion that most boxers DO get it and make the effort to sustain boxes they find. By planting boxes, I take my risks with the rest of 'em.

Absolutely. :)

Just yesterday, I found a letterbox in a L&L, no plastic bag caught under the O-ring and there was water in the box. The plastic bags around the contents kept everything in good condition. I would certainly hesitate to place a letterbox without that extra layer of protection. Incidentally, it was the first image from a Kirbert stamp in my collection.

Just yesterday, I found a letterbox in a L&L, no plastic bag caught under the O-ring and there was water in the box.

Interesting. Was that a real lock n lock or an imitation lock n lock? The one I found, with a tab broken off, looked just like the real thing. It was until I had a look at the manufacturer's seal on the bottom that I found out that it was a dollarama knock-off.

Didn't check for authenticity but this is the fifth or sixth L&L I've found with water inside. They have all been in places that freeze during winter. I'm thinking the O-rings get too stiff to seal when the're cold. Don't forget that O-ring failure doomed Challenger.

Don't forget that O-ring failure doomed Challenger.

Yeah, but that was a Viton O-ring. I suspect the seal in a L&L is silicone, far less likely to significantly harden in cold weather. I do find your reported failures interesting, as you seem to have found more leaky L&L's than everyone else put together.

While doing spring maintenance today I found one of my 'boxes had a hole punched through the lid. Someone had put a small rock on top, then a larger rock on top of it all. Oh well...

In spite of the puddle in the undamaged bottom of the 'box, the log book was perfectly dry! Thanx to having been double bagged (qt freezer ziplox) as I had stipulated. A new container will put it back in business. :D

(Yes I have found bags caught in the seal of lock n locks but I have also seen them caught in many other, different types of containers, too. They all leak under the circumstance.)

Connfederate

Hello - I'm curious about how the "freezer method" works?

I rescued a soaked letterbox today, logbook completely soaked through. In this case the letter"box" as actually just a large freezer bag that had not been sealed properly by the prior finders. Just wondering if there is a better method to drying it out than just airing it out.

Thanks!